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	<title>Comments for Ecclesial Dreamer...</title>
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	<description>the ramlings of an ecclesial dreamer</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:01:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Displaced&#8230; by Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1311&#038;cpage=1#comment-1272</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1311#comment-1272</guid>
		<description>James, I&#039;m waiting to hear more on what has happened, or what event was the last?  There have been many changes in the life giving community, and I confess that at times I have felt displaced as well.  What keeps me going is a hopeful curiosity on where the road turns next.  For me it seems that to engage in any &quot;christian&quot; community requires wearing blinders to what alienates, and frankly I can only do it for short stints, I cannot live with intentional blindness.  Sometimes I think my perspective is hyper-sensitive to injustice, or what I think will lead to injustice.  But that&#039;s me.  I&#039;m more interested in what&#039;s going on with you...  Looking forward to new posts after you catch many trout.
Good Journey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, I&#8217;m waiting to hear more on what has happened, or what event was the last?  There have been many changes in the life giving community, and I confess that at times I have felt displaced as well.  What keeps me going is a hopeful curiosity on where the road turns next.  For me it seems that to engage in any &#8220;christian&#8221; community requires wearing blinders to what alienates, and frankly I can only do it for short stints, I cannot live with intentional blindness.  Sometimes I think my perspective is hyper-sensitive to injustice, or what I think will lead to injustice.  But that&#8217;s me.  I&#8217;m more interested in what&#8217;s going on with you&#8230;  Looking forward to new posts after you catch many trout.<br />
Good Journey</p>
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		<title>Comment on Still stuck at the crossroads&#8230; by pagan pastor</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1302&#038;cpage=1#comment-1237</link>
		<dc:creator>pagan pastor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1302#comment-1237</guid>
		<description>Hey Jeff,

Great review. 
It is interesting to read on-site reports of the &quot;Jesus-centered&quot; ones who &quot;had to leave the organized church in order to preserve their faith.&quot; The following accounts of primal church meetings are from a yahoo group with over 400 people--hardly dismissable as fabricated. (A free yahoo mail account is needed for access.)

.....................................

Subject: [hcconnection] Rethinking Frank V

I felt it important to forward the following post considering the past discussions about Frank Viola &amp; Gene Edwards. Since Susan is an eye-witness to the account, this would not be gossip or hear-say. It is simply a warning to avoid these men as their ministries are not Christ-centered.       Scott

Dear Saints,

I&#039;m glad to join the throng on the new list and also comment on the recent discussion regarding Frank/Gene. Some of you know me from other hc discussion lists (hcdl and hctalk) and also face to face meetings at home church conferences in the past. I have been lurking for the last couple months but due to time constraints hadn&#039;t posted yet. But I feel it appropriate for me to jump into the recent conversation since I have first hand experience with churches planted by Frank and also experienced Gene&#039;s influence.

From the , I spent 25 years 1971-1996 in a Bible based cult....the Alamo Christian (?) Church. The Alamo group was extremely spiritually abusive, authoritarian, manipulative and controlling and after coming out of there, I was helped tremendously by reading Gene&#039;s book Letters To A Devastated Christian and Frank&#039;s book Who Is Your Covering? In 1999 my husband, sons, and I moved to Brandon (which just happened to be 5 miles from where we grew up and where all our relatives live) to be near family and the church in Brandon that Frank was &quot;planting&quot;.

Approximately 50 believers met together in homes in Brandon. To make a very long story short, this past March about 15 of us left this group, including Frank&#039;s wife. Throughout the almost 3 years I was a part of the group here, the manipulation and control by Frank increased. It really took me off guard initially because I couldn&#039;t understand how someone who wrote and spoke against &quot;spiritual gurus&quot; could act like one. He talked a good talk but it didn&#039;t play out in reality. For instance, one example (a year into this) there was a big push to get everyone to move into the same neighborhood. At first, when Frank was asked, he answered, &quot;No, it&#039;s not a condition of fellowship&quot;. Later it became &quot;expected&quot; by Frank that everyone should move into the neighborhood and shortly thereafter it became &quot;disobedience to God&quot; not to move into the neighborhood.

People were told not to ask &quot;why&quot; when people left the group. Frank would &quot;suggest&quot; things and than EXPECTED that everyone agreed, with no dialogue.

I could go on and on but maybe you get the idea and don&#039;t want to hear all the gory details. This past Feb (2002) I asked three of the older brothers to come to my house so that I could share my many concerns with them and I wanted them to go to Frank on my behalf...(they then expressed to me that they shared some of these same concerns). They went to Frank but there was no change. Right afterwards Frank was pressing for us to do something that I thought was very controlling, I balked and said I felt it was manipulative.

A special meeting was called because of my saying this. We tried to discuss the issues but instead the whistle blowers were personally attacked. And a few days later Frank shut down the church. Unknown to me until that day was that Frank had also been romantically involved two years earlier with one of his former high school students who had started coming to the meetings and to keep things quiet she had been whisked off to one of Gene&#039;s churches.

Now if Frank had repented with Godly sorrow I would be the first to forgive him, but this doesn&#039;t seem to be the case.

To date..several respected men in the homechurch realm have confronted Frank (about the manipulation, deception, and his affair) to no avail. He feels that he need only be accountable to Gene and his minions.

In the last couple months many people are wising up in these groups being planted by Gene and his &quot;workers&quot;. I have heard personally from the groups in Conroe, Tx Naples, Fl and a group frank was working with in Arizona that people are leaving because of this manipulation and deception.

I want to stress that I am not sharing these things to be mean spirited.

I am hearing now that Gene has had a reputation for many years for &quot;gathering unto himself, not unto Christ&quot;. I wish I had know that three years ago.

I was in a very vulnerable place 3 years ago, and the contrast seemed so great from what I had been a part of for many years. But people need to speak out when they know these things. There is no excuse for spiritual abuse.

These guys deceive and twist the scriptures to make people believe they should just suffer quietly. Jesus had plenty to say about the spiritual abusers of His day!!

Susan G. 
Brandon, Fl
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-wineskin/message/5370

..............................

Re: [hcconnection] Re: Question about Frank Viola

Ruth writes:

When I read this to me it sounded like Sue accused this man of something and
now she needed to explain herself better and even to Frank maybe
apolgize......if you read your whole statement as a whole it really sounded to
me like you were saying. that ..........she had done something wrong by hinting
of some indescretion that hasn&#039;t been proved. But I could had read what you
wrote totally wrong(not like I haven&#039;t never done that before)

Frank was the one caught by some cop at some motel with some women in the room
with him. Not any of us! (at least not yet that i know of on here)

And it&#039;s not you Lee at all. It is just this subject that keeps coming up again
and again. And I guess it gets old. As well as how do you discuss something that
has been hashed out on here.

Other than by suggesting to someone to look in archives. But your right. Some
don&#039;t know how to research this out. But I am sorry if I came across harsh at
all. I was just like you saying how I feel about this. But like usual. It would
be easier done if it was in person.

For me it isn&#039;t Frank so much as how do you bring up stuff so touch sensitive
and how do you talk about it over and over. And not sound like your beaten the
person up. When people do ask sincere questions. We don&#039;t won&#039;t to just ignore
them. It is just easier to direct them in area&#039;s were we have talked about it.

Please whoever ask the question, I hope you find your answers. Personally I have
no idea were Frank is in his personal life. He doesn&#039;t share with us on here how
things are going. And I doubt he would be calling me up and letting me know
personally and I don&#039;t think he won&#039;ts too either. Heck as far as I heard he
wouldn&#039;t admit to anything wrong in the first place.

But if he has blessed your life with his books. Well I guess that is what really
matters. But like Sue said. I wouldn&#039;t suggest you go sit at his feet and learn
from him.

Reading his books are much easier and less damaging.  ...

Later, Ruth

&gt; &gt; On 3/17/05 06:32 PM, victoryinhimhealed wrote:
&gt; &gt;
&gt;........................................................
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi, I&#039;m curious, has anyone heard whether the issues surrounding Mr.Viola have been resolved? I was reading two of his books yesterday and appreciated his insights.
&gt; &gt; &gt; Laurie

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-wineskin/message/17263

end of quoted messages

Viola will instruct us concerning &quot;church as family&quot; but it requires a manditory paternity test from a divorce court to sort out his own kids. http://tinyurl.com/mcmze5</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jeff,</p>
<p>Great review.<br />
It is interesting to read on-site reports of the &#8220;Jesus-centered&#8221; ones who &#8220;had to leave the organized church in order to preserve their faith.&#8221; The following accounts of primal church meetings are from a yahoo group with over 400 people&#8211;hardly dismissable as fabricated. (A free yahoo mail account is needed for access.)</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>Subject: [hcconnection] Rethinking Frank V</p>
<p>I felt it important to forward the following post considering the past discussions about Frank Viola &amp; Gene Edwards. Since Susan is an eye-witness to the account, this would not be gossip or hear-say. It is simply a warning to avoid these men as their ministries are not Christ-centered.       Scott</p>
<p>Dear Saints,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad to join the throng on the new list and also comment on the recent discussion regarding Frank/Gene. Some of you know me from other hc discussion lists (hcdl and hctalk) and also face to face meetings at home church conferences in the past. I have been lurking for the last couple months but due to time constraints hadn&#8217;t posted yet. But I feel it appropriate for me to jump into the recent conversation since I have first hand experience with churches planted by Frank and also experienced Gene&#8217;s influence.</p>
<p>From the , I spent 25 years 1971-1996 in a Bible based cult&#8230;.the Alamo Christian (?) Church. The Alamo group was extremely spiritually abusive, authoritarian, manipulative and controlling and after coming out of there, I was helped tremendously by reading Gene&#8217;s book Letters To A Devastated Christian and Frank&#8217;s book Who Is Your Covering? In 1999 my husband, sons, and I moved to Brandon (which just happened to be 5 miles from where we grew up and where all our relatives live) to be near family and the church in Brandon that Frank was &#8220;planting&#8221;.</p>
<p>Approximately 50 believers met together in homes in Brandon. To make a very long story short, this past March about 15 of us left this group, including Frank&#8217;s wife. Throughout the almost 3 years I was a part of the group here, the manipulation and control by Frank increased. It really took me off guard initially because I couldn&#8217;t understand how someone who wrote and spoke against &#8220;spiritual gurus&#8221; could act like one. He talked a good talk but it didn&#8217;t play out in reality. For instance, one example (a year into this) there was a big push to get everyone to move into the same neighborhood. At first, when Frank was asked, he answered, &#8220;No, it&#8217;s not a condition of fellowship&#8221;. Later it became &#8220;expected&#8221; by Frank that everyone should move into the neighborhood and shortly thereafter it became &#8220;disobedience to God&#8221; not to move into the neighborhood.</p>
<p>People were told not to ask &#8220;why&#8221; when people left the group. Frank would &#8220;suggest&#8221; things and than EXPECTED that everyone agreed, with no dialogue.</p>
<p>I could go on and on but maybe you get the idea and don&#8217;t want to hear all the gory details. This past Feb (2002) I asked three of the older brothers to come to my house so that I could share my many concerns with them and I wanted them to go to Frank on my behalf&#8230;(they then expressed to me that they shared some of these same concerns). They went to Frank but there was no change. Right afterwards Frank was pressing for us to do something that I thought was very controlling, I balked and said I felt it was manipulative.</p>
<p>A special meeting was called because of my saying this. We tried to discuss the issues but instead the whistle blowers were personally attacked. And a few days later Frank shut down the church. Unknown to me until that day was that Frank had also been romantically involved two years earlier with one of his former high school students who had started coming to the meetings and to keep things quiet she had been whisked off to one of Gene&#8217;s churches.</p>
<p>Now if Frank had repented with Godly sorrow I would be the first to forgive him, but this doesn&#8217;t seem to be the case.</p>
<p>To date..several respected men in the homechurch realm have confronted Frank (about the manipulation, deception, and his affair) to no avail. He feels that he need only be accountable to Gene and his minions.</p>
<p>In the last couple months many people are wising up in these groups being planted by Gene and his &#8220;workers&#8221;. I have heard personally from the groups in Conroe, Tx Naples, Fl and a group frank was working with in Arizona that people are leaving because of this manipulation and deception.</p>
<p>I want to stress that I am not sharing these things to be mean spirited.</p>
<p>I am hearing now that Gene has had a reputation for many years for &#8220;gathering unto himself, not unto Christ&#8221;. I wish I had know that three years ago.</p>
<p>I was in a very vulnerable place 3 years ago, and the contrast seemed so great from what I had been a part of for many years. But people need to speak out when they know these things. There is no excuse for spiritual abuse.</p>
<p>These guys deceive and twist the scriptures to make people believe they should just suffer quietly. Jesus had plenty to say about the spiritual abusers of His day!!</p>
<p>Susan G.<br />
Brandon, Fl<br />
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-wineskin/message/5370" rel="nofollow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-wineskin/message/5370</a></p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>Re: [hcconnection] Re: Question about Frank Viola</p>
<p>Ruth writes:</p>
<p>When I read this to me it sounded like Sue accused this man of something and<br />
now she needed to explain herself better and even to Frank maybe<br />
apolgize&#8230;&#8230;if you read your whole statement as a whole it really sounded to<br />
me like you were saying. that &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.she had done something wrong by hinting<br />
of some indescretion that hasn&#8217;t been proved. But I could had read what you<br />
wrote totally wrong(not like I haven&#8217;t never done that before)</p>
<p>Frank was the one caught by some cop at some motel with some women in the room<br />
with him. Not any of us! (at least not yet that i know of on here)</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s not you Lee at all. It is just this subject that keeps coming up again<br />
and again. And I guess it gets old. As well as how do you discuss something that<br />
has been hashed out on here.</p>
<p>Other than by suggesting to someone to look in archives. But your right. Some<br />
don&#8217;t know how to research this out. But I am sorry if I came across harsh at<br />
all. I was just like you saying how I feel about this. But like usual. It would<br />
be easier done if it was in person.</p>
<p>For me it isn&#8217;t Frank so much as how do you bring up stuff so touch sensitive<br />
and how do you talk about it over and over. And not sound like your beaten the<br />
person up. When people do ask sincere questions. We don&#8217;t won&#8217;t to just ignore<br />
them. It is just easier to direct them in area&#8217;s were we have talked about it.</p>
<p>Please whoever ask the question, I hope you find your answers. Personally I have<br />
no idea were Frank is in his personal life. He doesn&#8217;t share with us on here how<br />
things are going. And I doubt he would be calling me up and letting me know<br />
personally and I don&#8217;t think he won&#8217;ts too either. Heck as far as I heard he<br />
wouldn&#8217;t admit to anything wrong in the first place.</p>
<p>But if he has blessed your life with his books. Well I guess that is what really<br />
matters. But like Sue said. I wouldn&#8217;t suggest you go sit at his feet and learn<br />
from him.</p>
<p>Reading his books are much easier and less damaging.  &#8230;</p>
<p>Later, Ruth</p>
<p>&gt; &gt; On 3/17/05 06:32 PM, victoryinhimhealed wrote:<br />
&gt; &gt;<br />
&gt;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..<br />
&gt; &gt;<br />
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi, I&#8217;m curious, has anyone heard whether the issues surrounding Mr.Viola have been resolved? I was reading two of his books yesterday and appreciated his insights.<br />
&gt; &gt; &gt; Laurie</p>
<p><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-wineskin/message/17263" rel="nofollow">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new-wineskin/message/17263</a></p>
<p>end of quoted messages</p>
<p>Viola will instruct us concerning &#8220;church as family&#8221; but it requires a manditory paternity test from a divorce court to sort out his own kids. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/mcmze5" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/mcmze5</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Many will say, &#8220;Peace, peace&#8230;&#8221; by Anj</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1299&#038;cpage=1#comment-1232</link>
		<dc:creator>Anj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jun 2010 00:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1299#comment-1232</guid>
		<description>&quot;In the end, I don’t know that whatever a political nation state chooses to do about its social issues should dictate how the church lives out its calling in the world. &quot; Thanks for this James, the whole article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In the end, I don’t know that whatever a political nation state chooses to do about its social issues should dictate how the church lives out its calling in the world. &#8221; Thanks for this James, the whole article.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Many will say, &#8220;Peace, peace&#8230;&#8221; by Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1299&#038;cpage=1#comment-1228</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 May 2010 18:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1299#comment-1228</guid>
		<description>Hey James,
Good article.  We need to return to the politics of Jesus and not our current party or ideological systems. However I have some reservations on an exclusive focus.  God knows that if we can&#039;t even help our own brethren there&#039;s little hope for the rest of the world.  But groups that have worked like this in the past, and even the present seem cultic to me.  I can appreciate that the vista of helping the whole world can seem overwhelming... but maybe if we start by being a blessing with our own sphere of family, friends, acquaintances, and neighborhoods, regardless of labels we can maintain being the &quot;salt of the earth&quot;.

ps After writing this I realized that I was preaching to the choir.  I feel your desire to be in community connection with others of familiar faith.  And in that spirit I completely understand where you&#039;re coming from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey James,<br />
Good article.  We need to return to the politics of Jesus and not our current party or ideological systems. However I have some reservations on an exclusive focus.  God knows that if we can&#8217;t even help our own brethren there&#8217;s little hope for the rest of the world.  But groups that have worked like this in the past, and even the present seem cultic to me.  I can appreciate that the vista of helping the whole world can seem overwhelming&#8230; but maybe if we start by being a blessing with our own sphere of family, friends, acquaintances, and neighborhoods, regardless of labels we can maintain being the &#8220;salt of the earth&#8221;.</p>
<p>ps After writing this I realized that I was preaching to the choir.  I feel your desire to be in community connection with others of familiar faith.  And in that spirit I completely understand where you&#8217;re coming from.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Falling&#8230; by Jason Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1291&#038;cpage=1#comment-1202</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1291#comment-1202</guid>
		<description>Hi James,

Sounds awful, that must be so distressing.

Praying for you as I read this, this morning.

Jason</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi James,</p>
<p>Sounds awful, that must be so distressing.</p>
<p>Praying for you as I read this, this morning.</p>
<p>Jason</p>
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		<title>Comment on Transformation&#8230; by Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1275&#038;cpage=1#comment-1182</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1275#comment-1182</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re not unacceptable, James.  You&#039;re just a thinker.  Most thinkers make others uncomfortable. I cannot even accommodate the thought that our old church died because of you. The quality of its spiritual considerations were much enhanced by your presence, as far as I&#039;m concerned. OK, and you were kind of fun! We just couldn&#039;t put enough spit on the fuse to keep that one from exploding!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re not unacceptable, James.  You&#8217;re just a thinker.  Most thinkers make others uncomfortable. I cannot even accommodate the thought that our old church died because of you. The quality of its spiritual considerations were much enhanced by your presence, as far as I&#8217;m concerned. OK, and you were kind of fun! We just couldn&#8217;t put enough spit on the fuse to keep that one from exploding!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Transformation&#8230; by Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1275&#038;cpage=1#comment-1180</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ecclesialdreamer.com/?p=1275#comment-1180</guid>
		<description>James, like Viktor Navorski, the problem didn&#039;t lie with him personally, but were due to systemic dysfunctions beyond his personal ability to control.  To fight the system you sometimes need some creative translation.....

So what is your favorite Advent film?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, like Viktor Navorski, the problem didn&#8217;t lie with him personally, but were due to systemic dysfunctions beyond his personal ability to control.  To fight the system you sometimes need some creative translation&#8230;..</p>
<p>So what is your favorite Advent film?</p>
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